tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2290828421410624791.post2372883197983186561..comments2024-03-14T10:32:29.233-05:00Comments on Blood of Prokopius: Meditations on AlignmentFrDavehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00459281821319914530noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2290828421410624791.post-90824217010813291002011-01-22T20:58:47.826-06:002011-01-22T20:58:47.826-06:00@FrDave:
That taps into the thread of notions like...@FrDave:<br />That taps into the thread of notions like Cultural Essentialism and the Pale of Civilization! That can fit well in the context of your D&D(LL) game(That is an excellent addition to the 'flavor', I'd say.) This is definitely distinct from most ruminations on the subject. I've never seen any remotely convincing reason to use the Tongues before. As alignment change is gradual, you could learn the new Tongue as you go along, but what about the former Tongue? Is it inert, or simply 'forgotten', as per tradition, in D&D?velaranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689908090884198784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2290828421410624791.post-5924789157305757572011-01-22T13:34:45.583-06:002011-01-22T13:34:45.583-06:00@velaran
The alignment tongues never struck me as ...@velaran<br />The alignment tongues never struck me as making much sense, regardless. However, now that you have me thinking . . . I can see a case for two alignment tongues. Lawful could the equivalent of Greek — the lingua franca of civilization, as it were. I realize that this sounds like Common, but there could be a differentiation between the two — something like the difference between Greek/Latin or Classical Greek/Koine Greek. Chaotic could represent the lingua franca (as such) for those outside of civilization. The folks who got accused of being monophysites generally stuck together in ethnic groups (i.e. the Copts). On the other side of the Med, the classic barbarian was a German. Thus, Chaotic could be a catch-all for these ethnic/outsider groups.FrDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459281821319914530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2290828421410624791.post-55768473849057064552011-01-22T09:02:41.815-06:002011-01-22T09:02:41.815-06:00@FrDave
Alignment and Categorization:
I throw it o...@FrDave<br />Alignment and Categorization:<br />I throw it out the window. I didn't care for the Wild Chaos opposing Lawful Order vibe of D&D's ethos, so pow, gone. <br /><br />Your system salvages the alignment component almost totally, however. Great job!<br /><br />But, Alignment Tongues?!?! What can you do with those? Excuse me, Sir. Do you speak Arianism? <br /><br />Monophysitism:<br />Or that Christ only appeared to be human, IIRC. He never had any humanity to begin with. This sect is still around.<br /><br />Sabellianism:<br />This one is actually humorous if you imagine it Final Fantasy End Boss Style.(Or maybe Power Rangers).<br /><br />Nestorianism:<br />The implications are disturbing, actually. Definitely a code that no one would forget, though...<br /><br />Donatism:<br />Recipe for disaster in the real world, but a God with a One-Strike rule in a game would certainly be memorable.(And probably greatly feared.)<br /><br />Gnosticism:<br />There appears to be some evidence of variance in this one lately, but the 'classic' Gnostics fit your view better.<br /><br />Arianism:<br />Some things never go outta style.<br /><br />'Nazi Germany was a Lawful Neutral country':<br />Don't forget the qualifying phrase 'with Evil Tendencies' with this one, I'd say.<br /><br />Holy Spirit and Protestants:<br />Its mentioned a lot in Southern Baptism, in the context of individual believers AND the Church being infused by it and motivated to do something or other...<br /><br />'All actions are made in context of our relationship with Christ. Everything we do either leads us toward Him or away from Him. These actions will reflect what we believe and our beliefs will shape our actions.':<br />Heard this one a lot when religious friends(the aforementioned Southern Baptists mostly) were discussing morality.<br /><br />In the context of D&D, this brings the image of Jesus plotting an Aligment Graph to my mind. <br /><br />Most excellent post!velaranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689908090884198784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2290828421410624791.post-13702866776022742322011-01-05T15:23:57.568-06:002011-01-05T15:23:57.568-06:00Erin,
For what its worth, the first time I came t...Erin,<br /><br />For what its worth, the first time I came to that conclusion, it blew my mind too.FrDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459281821319914530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2290828421410624791.post-45657255580905363852011-01-05T15:20:15.737-06:002011-01-05T15:20:15.737-06:00Roger,
Thanks for the kind words.
Protestant do...Roger,<br /><br />Thanks for the kind words. <br /><br /><i>Protestant doctrine is interesting also, to me it doesn't quite fit the scheme. It takes power and responsibility from the Church and puts these things on the individual.</i><br /><br />This depends upon which flavor of Protestants we are talking about, but in the sense that they deny the Holy Spirit the ability to work through flawed human beings (the Church Hierarchy) they are much like the Donatists (and therefore Lawful in this scheme).<br /><br /><i>As Ursula K. LeGuin noted with regard to anarchism, this is "Chaotic" in the matter of social structure, but actually makes more demands on the individual to behave "Lawfully."</i><br /><br />This is exactly why I have never been satisfied with the traditional D&D conception of Law vs. Chaos.FrDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459281821319914530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2290828421410624791.post-28924560526808648762011-01-05T14:21:53.311-06:002011-01-05T14:21:53.311-06:00All actions are made in context of our relationshi...<i>All actions are made in context of our relationship with Christ. Everything we do either leads us toward Him or away from Him. These actions will reflect what we believe and our beliefs will shape our actions.</i><br /><br />I think you just blew my mind. I had been talking only in terms of a given RPG campaign, but your response to my question is the most succinct wisdom on faith I've read. I need to think about it for a bit. Thanks.Erin Smalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16085303583608172242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2290828421410624791.post-58446780326589588882011-01-05T13:28:28.852-06:002011-01-05T13:28:28.852-06:00Erin,
I should have been a bit clearer. What I me...Erin,<br /><br />I should have been a bit clearer. What I mean is that seeing people as disposable cogs in a machine is evil. When individuality gets trumped by the collective through coercion, that is evil. Willingly sacrificing <i>others</i> is evil. Self-sacrifice normally operates from seeing value in others — so much so that they are worthy of your sacrifice. Therefore it normally falls into the good category. I would argue that an exception to this would be suicide attacks, where there is a blatant disregard of the value of the individual.<br /><br /><i>Given the approach to alignment you describe, are you saying that, in the context of Christian theology, a character's actions have no meaning outside his relationship with Christ?</i><br /><br />All actions are made in context of our relationship with Christ. Everything we do either leads us toward Him or away from Him. These actions will reflect what we believe and our beliefs will shape our actions.FrDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459281821319914530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2290828421410624791.post-1037728404411854942011-01-05T13:04:26.258-06:002011-01-05T13:04:26.258-06:00bombasticus,
The only problem I have with the Chr...bombasticus,<br /><br />The only problem I have with the Christ/Caesar model is that the Church never stopped supporting the Empire even when being persecuted. Read St. Justin the Martyr's letter to Emperor Marcus Arelius — he explains that the faithful always pray for those in civil authority (a practice that continues to this day).<br /><br />Iconoclasm makes two assumptions. 1) It questions the value of matter — mere paint and wood is not worthy of depicting Christ and his saints. 2) It calls into question the Incarnation of Christ — if God became tangible, why can't we paint pictures of Him? Thus, Iconoclasm falls under Chaos because it overemphasizes Christ's divinity.FrDavehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00459281821319914530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2290828421410624791.post-41147133814828265652011-01-05T12:39:19.482-06:002011-01-05T12:39:19.482-06:00I clamored for this and it doesn't disappoint ...I clamored for this and it doesn't disappoint ... the idea of Albigensian Elves in particular!<br /><br />On the Nazis: I believe they were evil not because they loved their country, but because they valued other countries and peoples at nil in order to further their own cause. It is possible to be chauvinistic but to draw the line at cruelty, unprovoked aggression, and subjugation. This in fact is <a href="http://rolesrules.blogspot.com/search/label/alignment" rel="nofollow">my conception</a> of "neutral" vis-a-vis good and evil - not universally benevolent, nor nihilistic, but holding to a certain functional natural-law morality. <br /><br />Nonetheless, it's true that the Nazis drew many "Neutral" people into their plans by cynically convincing them that Germans faced an immediate threat from the Jews, Poles (yes, <a href="http://longstreet.typepad.com/thesciencebookstore/2008/09/the-polish-thre.html" rel="nofollow">Poles</a>), Reds and so on. <br /><br />Protestant doctrine is interesting also, to me it doesn't quite fit the scheme. It takes power and responsibility from the Church and puts these things on the individual. As Ursula K. LeGuin noted with regard to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dispossessed" rel="nofollow">anarchism</a>, this is "Chaotic" in the matter of social structure, but actually makes more demands on the individual to behave "Lawfully."Roger G-Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08594440701279968693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2290828421410624791.post-60073036638876771302011-01-05T12:21:00.098-06:002011-01-05T12:21:00.098-06:00As always, well though out and thought provoking. ...As always, well though out and thought provoking. One item confuses me a bit, though:<br /><br /><i>Evil sees either no value in individuals or places the collective above the individual.</i><br /><br />Does this put self-sacrifice (or the deliberate sacrifice of a few) for the sake of many into the evil category? <br /><br />On the surface, it would seem contradictory--if one individual is valuable, are not more individuals (the collective) even more valuable?<br /><br />Or am I completely missing the point? Is it that individuals are not potatoes, so 1 is just as valuable as 100? Given the approach to alignment you describe, are you saying that, in the context of Christian theology, a character's actions have no meaning outside his relationship with Christ?Erin Smalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16085303583608172242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2290828421410624791.post-10949790824622730012011-01-05T12:13:29.843-06:002011-01-05T12:13:29.843-06:00Hi Dave --
This set a gear churning for me: What ...Hi Dave --<br /><br />This set a gear churning for me: What if the good/evil axis is Christ and the law/chaos axis is Caesar?<br /><br />Or Church and Empire, both broadly defined. Sometimes they align. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes we serve both, sometimes one or the other, and sometimes neither.<br /><br />Here's a gear for you: what does the iconodule/iconoclast controversy tell us about law and chaos in your system?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com